The Egregious Classic Resto Shaman Progressive BiS


  • Initiate

    @Egregious What are your thoughts on darkmoon faire card blue dragon on shaman? ive been really unlucky with shard and mindtap and have a good amount of spirit 230 unbuffed running 5pc t1 and 3pc t2 for hybrid tank/raid healing.


  • Initiate

    Full T1 becomes obsolete as soon as AQ40 gear becomes available right? So every shaman is going for 3/8 t2 then, unless youre on tank healing duty, in which case you would go for the items stated above if youre not primarily using CH. I thought t1 was viable until Naxx at first.


  • Founder Shaman

    @Borsko-Elemental I do not enjoy it as a trinket. I prefer reliability over a random proc. Additionally, it's not even what I would consider useful in a random proc. No Shaman should have to rely on the trinket for mana conservation. It is completely within reason to float yourself with mana consumables, MP5 inherent on gear, and a strong understanding of active time and cast canceling. If it were a +healing proc, it would be a different discussion.

    @Chain1 Full T1 8pc is viable throughout all of Classic. T1 8pc Shaman fill a niche tank/melee healing role in a way that CH spamming Shaman do no. A T2 3pc w/ +healing off pieces is a malee and raid healer. A T2.5 5pc w/ T2 3pc is a bit of an intermediary between damage and stronger subsequent heals. A really high end roster can run their entire Shaman roster as T2.5 5pc w/ T2 3pc and get full use out of it. IMO the majority of average rosters should see no more than 1 or 2 T2.5 5pc w/ T2 3pc Shaman. T2.5 should go to your best Shaman who understands their class, mana consumption and encounter mechanics as T2.5, if used improperly, can be a detriment to the Shaman.


  • Initiate

    @Egregious Can you go into some depth about how to maximize the value of T2.5 - I'm not sure without looking into a throughput calculator how exactly it stacks up with a full +healing set (it looks like you give up ~200 healing and some crit by using the 5 pieces of 2.5 compared to individual pieces). Mostly looking to get a sense of where the throughput falls compared to other sets and how you'd go about maximizing the value - is the main issue just mana consumption so effective downranking and consumable use?


  • Initiate

    Awesome work thank you very much


  • Initiate

    @Egregious could you elaborate further on the tiers of T2 pieces? currently have T2 legs, was about to apply ZG class enchant on it but decided against it while looking up guides (and stumbled upon this). i don't have T2 bracers or belt because i have Loomguard Armbraces and Corehound Belt, but if T2 legs are that bad i'd try to get the bracers so i can replace pants with Empowered Leggings.


  • Initiate

    @TreKaufPL check out this coefficient calculator I made a while back to prove that rank 3 healing wave wasn't the best ever after a point.
    feel free to make a copy and input your own +healing 😄 great to know how much stuff will hit for, I've also backported spelltips https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1umrIqhovOdhzWQfKD7w_m9aJdvCvx3srzhpF1rlxw1A/edit?usp=sharing


  • Initiate

    @Silver-Hawke imo best thing to do is collect all of t2, not to wear all at once, just to maintain 3 set whilst upgrading nonset items, eventually you'll want bracers gloves belt so they're your most valuable. currently its pants/bracers/gloves, so its still worth putting zg enchant on your t2 pants until you get bis helm from a world dragon.


  • Founder Shaman

    @protean2213 said in The Egregious Classic Resto Shaman Progressive BiS:

    @Egregious Can you go into some depth about how to maximize the value of T2.5 - I'm not sure without looking into a throughput calculator how exactly it stacks up with a full +healing set (it looks like you give up ~200 healing and some crit by using the 5 pieces of 2.5 compared to individual pieces). Mostly looking to get a sense of where the throughput falls compared to other sets and how you'd go about maximizing the value - is the main issue just mana consumption so effective downranking and consumable use?

    I did some math for this in the Shaman Discord. This is basically the breakdown:

    I also just ran AQ BiS T2 3pc w/ +healing against AQ BiS T2.5 5pc + T2 3pc to sim the difference in raw healing, assuming chain casting, is good but not phenominal over a 60 second encounter.

    In a 60 second encounter casting back to back Chain Heals:
    T2.5 5pc w/ T2 3pc: 865 +healing, 9.24% crit (not simulated), 28 casts
    https://sixtyupgrades.com/set/dFduFnynhikNH4Qfdh4Fkp
    CHr1 HPS = 996.78 | Raw = 58,604
    CHr2 HPS = 1097.2 | Raw = 64, 512
    CHr3 HPS = 1268.18 | Raw = 74,564

    T2 3pc w/ +healing offpieces: 1057 +healing, 7.02% crit (not simulated), 24 casts
    https://sixtyupgrades.com/set/8Ec7Gz7zjLwvxLC4Ba16ER
    CHr1 HPS = 950.99 | Raw = 57,048
    CHr2 HPS = 1035.34 | Raw = 62,111
    CHr3 HPS = 1178.96 | Raw = 70,728

    % Difference
    CHr1 HPS = 4.8% increase | Raw = 2.7% increase
    CHr2 HPS = 6.0% increase | Raw = 3.9% increase
    CHr3 HPS = 7.6% increase | Raw = 5.4% increase


  • Founder Shaman

    @Silver-Hawke said in The Egregious Classic Resto Shaman Progressive BiS:

    @Egregious could you elaborate further on the tiers of T2 pieces? currently have T2 legs, was about to apply ZG class enchant on it but decided against it while looking up guides (and stumbled upon this). i don't have T2 bracers or belt because i have Loomguard Armbraces and Corehound Belt, but if T2 legs are that bad i'd try to get the bracers so i can replace pants with Empowered Leggings.

    Yes. Basically you always want to equip whatever 3 pieces of T2 you have and then focus on acquiring the ideal set items. It doesn't matter what 3 pieces you have, equipping any 3 will be a massive improvement to CH regardless of what +healing items you lose. Shoulders should be avoided at all costs unless you need it for T2 3pc and legs aren't phenomenal. I rank the T2 pieces in those 3 tiers of priority as those pieces listed in tier 1 have the greatest longevity throughout Classic.

    It also absolutely depends on from what perspective we're talking. The BiS T2 pieces will be different in BWL and will change if you run T2.5 5pc, etc. So context is important.


  • Initiate

    @Egregious
    I am not a shaman, but I am GM/MT trying to understand the argument the shamans in my guild are having. We currently have no resto druid so one of our shaman are running 8/8 t1 to assist in the tank healing role. I was hoping I could get a little bit of insight on if 8/8 T1 is going to be better on the tanks than 3/8 T2 with off pieces going into AQ40 if the healer's main target is going to be me the tank. Sorry if this has all be answered above, It seems similar questions have been asked but I'm just trying to understand what is making one or the other better with our comp of 5 Shaman 5 priests healing.


  • Initiate

    @BigbufordHUDS My understanding is that if you are primarily assigned to tank heals as a shaman t1 8/8 has a better single target throughput and recoups mana from the 5 pc bonus. The "icing" is that there are splash heals help on fights where the tanks are localized plus increases the chance on 5pc procing.

    The only thing that I am really curious about is any of that really worth it when chain heal has less overheal on the front and always goes to the lowest on the 2nd and 3rd targets. It seems like it would take even more awareness on a t1 8/8 sham to really maximize the different healing style.


  • Founder Shaman

    @BigbufordHUDS said in The Egregious Classic Resto Shaman Progressive BiS:

    @Egregious
    I am not a shaman, but I am GM/MT trying to understand the argument the shamans in my guild are having. We currently have no resto druid so one of our shaman are running 8/8 t1 to assist in the tank healing role. I was hoping I could get a little bit of insight on if 8/8 T1 is going to be better on the tanks than 3/8 T2 with off pieces going into AQ40 if the healer's main target is going to be me the tank. Sorry if this has all be answered above, It seems similar questions have been asked but I'm just trying to understand what is making one or the other better with our comp of 5 Shaman 5 priests healing.

    If you are lacking a Druid or Priest a T1 8pc Shaman is a solid option. If you have the capacity to allow them to run Healing Way it will further increase their impact. T1 8pc is a better tank healing option than +heal and T2. If you assign a healer to a MT role it's best they commit to that role. It's a bit incoherent to have them fill the tank and raid healing roles. There are two options for a tank healing Shama; 1) to run T1 8pc and 2) to run full +heal offpieces in order to generate the highest amount of throughput on a single target. The benefit of T1 is that it redistributes some of the potential overheal from the front-loaded spell and redistributes it to nearby players while increasing the HPM of HW, and the benefit of full +healing gear providing the largest potential heal to the target.

    @polaski said in The Egregious Classic Resto Shaman Progressive BiS:

    The only thing that I am really curious about is any of that really worth it when chain heal has less overheal on the front and always goes to the lowest on the 2nd and 3rd targets. It seems like it would take even more awareness on a t1 8/8 sham to really maximize the different healing style.

    The goal is to have a large land on the initial target from a tank healing perspective. Either that or a quick one. CH is an undesirable primary tank heal but can be utilized by the raid healing Shaman when healing melee to provide an extra buffer. It is inadvisable to primarily tank heal with CH in any fashion. The goal of tank healing is to provide sustained heavy direct healing to the tank, not necessarily to be the most efficient.


  • Founder Shaman

    This post is deleted!

  • Initiate

    @Egregious
    Perfect! I was also running the napkin math on best HSP itemization. Technically the Bracelets of Royal Redemption inconjuction with T2 helm/gloves/belt have slightly more HSP (16) but you lose a crap ton of MP5 (-17); is this one of those corner cases where you just want to get the "best bang for your buck"?


  • Initiate

    Friend showed me this but it seems for pure throughput it is probably better to go Royal Redemption Bracers + t2 boots over t2 bracers + boots of pure thought.

    Seen below.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/671158427241939006/745669021273161798/unknown.png


  • Founder Shaman

    @polaski said in The Egregious Classic Resto Shaman Progressive BiS:

    @Egregious
    Perfect! I was also running the napkin math on best HSP itemization. Technically the Bracelets of Royal Redemption inconjuction with T2 helm/gloves/belt have slightly more HSP (16) but you lose a crap ton of MP5 (-17); is this one of those corner cases where you just want to get the "best bang for your buck"?

    @Kenny said in The Egregious Classic Resto Shaman Progressive BiS:

    Friend showed me this but it seems for pure throughput it is probably better to go Royal Redemption Bracers + t2 boots over t2 bracers + boots of pure thought.

    Seen below.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/671158427241939006/745669021273161798/unknown.png

    Yes, technically Royal Redemption are better from a pure throughput perspective but that's not what BiS technically is. Or rather it would be if the lens you were viewing BiS through was specifically throughput in a situation with no mana constraints. There are all manner of margin calls I make when I consider BiS but, for general use, I adhere to this gear list when I can. Not everyone plays under the same environmental factors so the weights are geared around 3 to 5 minutes of combat. For individual boss encounters, not trash which is the majority of the instance and most significant aspect of a raid, you may want to go full throughput when mana constraints are irrelevant.

    Also the Helm, Gloves, Belt sacrifices CAC, DGC or Don Rig's. If you wanted to go Royal Redemption you should run Gloves, Belt, Boots. Balancing T2 3pc among all possible loot permutations makes it very complicated for the playerbase as well. As @Kenny pointed out in the snap he linked, that reduces the +heal gain to 9 and a loss of 6MP5. Only for extremely short encounters would I make that trade and I definitely wouldn't build my entire purchase power around it. If you can pick up Royal Redemption for the use cases it is ideal in without taking it away from a player for whom it would be of greater impact, or if BoPT are extremely rare for your raid, sure, more power to you. IMO the Royal Redemption gear set is overall slightly inferior to the BoPT gear set but still completely viable.

    @Turm-Runescape This isn't true, T2.5 will overtake T2 concretely typically after ~25 seconds assuming balanced gear between both sets. Actually slightly faster which is related to the point you brought up about Crit. The value of T2.5 is not sniping. I really disagree with the entire concept of sniping. Sniping is only sniping if you are purposefully using a lower cast time spell and OOMing yourself in the process to accomplish cosmetically higher healing in relation to your healing roster. Basically expending your mana needlessly to push out other healers from the available damage pool. This also assumes the benefit of casting the faster heal is minimal; which, the majority of the time, it isn't. There is nearly always a strong benefit to getting healing out more promptly. That is why I argue it is very hard to actually "snipe" healing in the way people commonly gripe about it. However, that is not what T2.5 is at all and it would be extremely hard to use it as a "snipe set" if that were a thing. If you were to argue it is the entire premise there is that "Haste is for sniping" which is not true.

    But you are correct about the strengths of T2 in an environment with fewer healers or less competition and in regards to the ease of a T2.5 Shaman "slotting" their heal into available health deficits. In reality you want some Shaman on T2.5 and the remainder on T2 outside of strat specific requirements as they provide two slightly different styles of CH. The real reason T2.5 isn't straight up better in every situation is because of the manner in which damage is done in Classic. Most encounters have mechanics which apply damage over a brief duration followed by downtime until the next damaging mechanic. This means that there can be significant stoppage and startage of casting and, during the periods of damage, only a few GCDs are capable of being expended before the raid is stable. A proactive healer precasting into this kind of damage drastically reduces the benefit of T2.5 as the entire benefit of the set can be lost in comparison to T2 -assuming both sets are being worn by players of equal skill. If a damaging mechanic only has 3 to 5 GCDs worth of casts before the raid is capped before a stoppage period occurs it can be challenging for the T2.5 Shaman to get the full use out of their set. However, it can definitely offset a reactive healer's ability to respond to damage and this, in practice, is what most people perceive as the actual benefit of the set despite it being only an incidental benefit. Two reactive healers addressing the same 3 to 5 GCDs worth of damage before the raid is capped and a break in casting occurs finds the T2.5 set is at a distinct advantage.


  • Founder Shaman

    But you don't lose any coefficient... I don't understand your argument. A 2.5 sec CH and a 2.1 sec CH benefit from the same coefficient.

    You're absolutely wrong. T2.5 is concretely better over time vs the T2 full +heal set. The 16% haste gain will outpace standard cast time high value heals after a certain period of continued casting. I don't understand wtf you're talking about.


  • Initiate

    @Egregious Have you looked into the advantages/disadvantages of p6 gearing in Naxx. Looking through the T3 set pieces, they seem to offer only marginal benefit if any on a few select pieces over the straight +healing set and none of the set bonuses seem particularly impactful given totemic power not interacting with chain heal. How do you actually look at T3 pieces as far as their value when itemizing gearsets? It would seem that T2.5/T2 is still going to outpace by roughly the same amount and most of the T3 pieces are comparable at best or even a downgrade when valued strictly as offpieces compared to their alternatives in a +healing set.


  • Initiate

    @Egregious could you provide any direction on the value of T3 set bonuses, versus wearing none at all? I have some shaman in my raid group who are adamant that T3 is not an upgrade to any available gear pre-Naxx and they will not be wearing any of it because "the set bonuses are bad".