The Egregious Classic Resto Shaman Progressive BiS


  • Founder Shaman

    This post is deleted!

  • Initiate

    @Egregious
    Perfect! I was also running the napkin math on best HSP itemization. Technically the Bracelets of Royal Redemption inconjuction with T2 helm/gloves/belt have slightly more HSP (16) but you lose a crap ton of MP5 (-17); is this one of those corner cases where you just want to get the "best bang for your buck"?


  • Initiate

    Friend showed me this but it seems for pure throughput it is probably better to go Royal Redemption Bracers + t2 boots over t2 bracers + boots of pure thought.

    Seen below.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/671158427241939006/745669021273161798/unknown.png


  • Founder Shaman

    @polaski said in The Egregious Classic Resto Shaman Progressive BiS:

    @Egregious
    Perfect! I was also running the napkin math on best HSP itemization. Technically the Bracelets of Royal Redemption inconjuction with T2 helm/gloves/belt have slightly more HSP (16) but you lose a crap ton of MP5 (-17); is this one of those corner cases where you just want to get the "best bang for your buck"?

    @Kenny said in The Egregious Classic Resto Shaman Progressive BiS:

    Friend showed me this but it seems for pure throughput it is probably better to go Royal Redemption Bracers + t2 boots over t2 bracers + boots of pure thought.

    Seen below.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/671158427241939006/745669021273161798/unknown.png

    Yes, technically Royal Redemption are better from a pure throughput perspective but that's not what BiS technically is. Or rather it would be if the lens you were viewing BiS through was specifically throughput in a situation with no mana constraints. There are all manner of margin calls I make when I consider BiS but, for general use, I adhere to this gear list when I can. Not everyone plays under the same environmental factors so the weights are geared around 3 to 5 minutes of combat. For individual boss encounters, not trash which is the majority of the instance and most significant aspect of a raid, you may want to go full throughput when mana constraints are irrelevant.

    Also the Helm, Gloves, Belt sacrifices CAC, DGC or Don Rig's. If you wanted to go Royal Redemption you should run Gloves, Belt, Boots. Balancing T2 3pc among all possible loot permutations makes it very complicated for the playerbase as well. As @Kenny pointed out in the snap he linked, that reduces the +heal gain to 9 and a loss of 6MP5. Only for extremely short encounters would I make that trade and I definitely wouldn't build my entire purchase power around it. If you can pick up Royal Redemption for the use cases it is ideal in without taking it away from a player for whom it would be of greater impact, or if BoPT are extremely rare for your raid, sure, more power to you. IMO the Royal Redemption gear set is overall slightly inferior to the BoPT gear set but still completely viable.

    @Turm-Runescape This isn't true, T2.5 will overtake T2 concretely typically after ~25 seconds assuming balanced gear between both sets. Actually slightly faster which is related to the point you brought up about Crit. The value of T2.5 is not sniping. I really disagree with the entire concept of sniping. Sniping is only sniping if you are purposefully using a lower cast time spell and OOMing yourself in the process to accomplish cosmetically higher healing in relation to your healing roster. Basically expending your mana needlessly to push out other healers from the available damage pool. This also assumes the benefit of casting the faster heal is minimal; which, the majority of the time, it isn't. There is nearly always a strong benefit to getting healing out more promptly. That is why I argue it is very hard to actually "snipe" healing in the way people commonly gripe about it. However, that is not what T2.5 is at all and it would be extremely hard to use it as a "snipe set" if that were a thing. If you were to argue it is the entire premise there is that "Haste is for sniping" which is not true.

    But you are correct about the strengths of T2 in an environment with fewer healers or less competition and in regards to the ease of a T2.5 Shaman "slotting" their heal into available health deficits. In reality you want some Shaman on T2.5 and the remainder on T2 outside of strat specific requirements as they provide two slightly different styles of CH. The real reason T2.5 isn't straight up better in every situation is because of the manner in which damage is done in Classic. Most encounters have mechanics which apply damage over a brief duration followed by downtime until the next damaging mechanic. This means that there can be significant stoppage and startage of casting and, during the periods of damage, only a few GCDs are capable of being expended before the raid is stable. A proactive healer precasting into this kind of damage drastically reduces the benefit of T2.5 as the entire benefit of the set can be lost in comparison to T2 -assuming both sets are being worn by players of equal skill. If a damaging mechanic only has 3 to 5 GCDs worth of casts before the raid is capped before a stoppage period occurs it can be challenging for the T2.5 Shaman to get the full use out of their set. However, it can definitely offset a reactive healer's ability to respond to damage and this, in practice, is what most people perceive as the actual benefit of the set despite it being only an incidental benefit. Two reactive healers addressing the same 3 to 5 GCDs worth of damage before the raid is capped and a break in casting occurs finds the T2.5 set is at a distinct advantage.


  • Founder Shaman

    But you don't lose any coefficient... I don't understand your argument. A 2.5 sec CH and a 2.1 sec CH benefit from the same coefficient.

    You're absolutely wrong. T2.5 is concretely better over time vs the T2 full +heal set. The 16% haste gain will outpace standard cast time high value heals after a certain period of continued casting. I don't understand wtf you're talking about.


  • Initiate

    @Egregious Have you looked into the advantages/disadvantages of p6 gearing in Naxx. Looking through the T3 set pieces, they seem to offer only marginal benefit if any on a few select pieces over the straight +healing set and none of the set bonuses seem particularly impactful given totemic power not interacting with chain heal. How do you actually look at T3 pieces as far as their value when itemizing gearsets? It would seem that T2.5/T2 is still going to outpace by roughly the same amount and most of the T3 pieces are comparable at best or even a downgrade when valued strictly as offpieces compared to their alternatives in a +healing set.


  • Initiate

    @Egregious could you provide any direction on the value of T3 set bonuses, versus wearing none at all? I have some shaman in my raid group who are adamant that T3 is not an upgrade to any available gear pre-Naxx and they will not be wearing any of it because "the set bonuses are bad".


  • Founder Shaman

    @protean2213 Hey, hope I can help clarify.

    T3 is a very well balanced set as far as stats go. It has high primary stats and a very strong mix of +heal and MP5. There is no wasted item budget on Spirit, resists or other less than ideal stats for our class/role. This stat balances makes it very attractive from a HEP value perspective. While not being the highest piece in any slot as far as +healing goes, many of the T3 pieces win out through HEP due to the high Int and MP5 values. These calculations also do not take into account Stamina which, in Classic PvE and in PvE in general throughout WoW, has been a critically undervalued stat outside tanking. I have recently updated my Naxx BiS list to include my current evaluations of gear available in Phase 6.

    To your question(s). T3 is not the highest throughput set in that it doesn't have the highest available +healing. If you value only +healing then you can rely on the BiS items outlined in the AQ list or in the Highest +Heal w/ T2 3pc that I have just included after the Naxx gear list. If you value a balance of stats then T3 outcompetes many pieces in terms of overall value. This segues into the set bonuses. Let's work backwards from 8 to 2pc. The 8pc is fantastic, so fantastic Blizzard split it off into its own spell, Water Shield, in TBC. However, you can never equip it as you would lose T2 3pc. The 6pc is so situational it's just bad. The amount of thinking a player would have to do to have it meaningfully up at any given point in time is one both extremely high and would reduce the niche value of a well geared Shaman. Almost completely useless as far as I am concerned. From there the 4 and 2 pieces are good. If you have noticed a theme the set bonuses trend toward mana conservation. T3 2pc may have the highest use in Classic as the impact from a speed running view is high but the value from the MST would be negligible. Replacing totems frequently reduces the value of MST and therefore the 4pc. However, the average player will likely see some value out of 4pc. In all, T3 2pc and 8pc are the strongest set bonuses. If you subscribe to my evaluation of gear in Naxx while not running T2.5 5pc you will be using 5 pieces of T3 which will allow you to comfortably use the 2 and 4 piece bonuses.


  • Initiate

    @Egregious Would you say that a shaman with 5 piece T2.5 usually, or always, outperforms a shaman with AQ40 off pieces + naxx T3 items; if we disregard rings/cloak/weapons etc from Naxx. Many, or most, guilds seem to not allow shaman to have access to tier pieces in naxx, which makes shaman probably stick with T2.5.

    Then if T2.5 outperforms the off- and T3 pieces, no matter what, then I assume what I wrote above also is the best way to gear the raid.
    Mostly asking because you didn't, unless I missed something, actually point out which path is BIS during Naxx and/or if something will be released after Naxx; only that T2.5 has the highest HPS output during >25 second fights (until you are oom).


  • Founder Shaman

    @TreKaufPL During trash and under most encounter conditions it is easier for a T2.5 Shaman to outperform a non T2.5 user. The reason for why is multivariable but it's mostly due to the nature of Haste in relation to the available +healing tradeoff. If you are absolutely T2 3pc with +heal BiS then you'll have a 200ish +heal lead over a T2.5 Shaman. With that lead it is possible to outperform a T2.5 user on encounters with frequent breaks in casting; however, if you are not absolutely BiS it will be significantly harder to compete with T2.5.

    IMO there is no reason to prio Shaman T3 over the classes who see significant benefit from the set. We don't get much in the way of set bonuses and, while many of the pieces are very good, they are small upgrades or sidegrades depending on how you value +healing in relation to what's available in the game up to Naxx.


  • Initiate

    @Egregious Thanks for the answer! I agree with the +healing part. But T3 and off pieces also offer more mp5, stam and int for fights that last longer and require some survivability.

    Like for example, I'm assuming, sometimes it is better to have 150k spread over 60 seconds rather than 110k spread over 40 seconds, if the latter results in you being out of gas, as haste means both higher HPS but also "go oom faster". As you said, fights where you go all out for 1 minute, haste is better with currently available gear. Perhaps this is what you meant with breaks.


  • Founder Shaman

    @TreKaufPL I don't disagree that, on the whole, most T3 items are better. My HEP values support this as well. The HEP values I have put out are a good starting point for players who can then tailor them to meet their personal demand.

    When I say, "breaks in casting" I mean any time you are not required to chain back-to-back casts in combat. Additionally, there are breaks in combat -the frequency and duration of time spent out of combat allowing the player to drink- which also reduce the value of MP5. Just think about your specific raid environment in order to make judgements about how much MP5 or how much survivability you might want.


  • Initiate

    @Egregious Given it seems like Eye of the Dead is functioning a bit differently than anticipated with the active ability, how do you value it compared to ZHC/NAC - obviously the math changes as the fight length shifts but with the current functioning it seems like the active ability isn't particularly notable if it only affects 1.5 casts of chain heal every 2 min.

    What are your thoughts on prioritizing the item in general assuming it isn't changed? (Not sure whether to even anticipate it being changed as it's unclear to me whether this is actually a bug or working as intended)


  • Founder Shaman

    @protean2213 said in The Egregious Classic Resto Shaman Progressive BiS:

    @Egregious Given it seems like Eye of the Dead is functioning a bit differently than anticipated with the active ability, how do you value it compared to ZHC/NAC - obviously the math changes as the fight length shifts but with the current functioning it seems like the active ability isn't particularly notable if it only affects 1.5 casts of chain heal every 2 min.

    What are your thoughts on prioritizing the item in general assuming it isn't changed? (Not sure whether to even anticipate it being changed as it's unclear to me whether this is actually a bug or working as intended)

    Sorry for the delay.

    Although it's sad to see EotD works this way, I do believe it functions properly when considering the verbiage and how that same phrasing has been used in WoW. Given that the trinket will only impact a limited number of CHs or HWs (assuming T18pc) Shaman priority does drop. Sadly IMO it drops below both Priest and RDruid. However, Priest should consume all 5 charges of the trinket if they use PoH. This makes EotD a single target heal or HoT trinket only under current working conditions, multitarget heals suffer a considerable drawback. It's still BiS for Shaman in nearly all circumstances as the flat +healing bonus alone is such that an on-use trinket would only be better in extremely short duration encounters. With an EotD there is still on-use application especially as you rotate through trash but EotD should be an "equip and forget" sort of deal for boss encounters.


  • Initiate

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